“[Pornography] leads you to want to experience certain things, even as sad as sadomasochism. And so no, I would not say it’s healthy. I would not say it’s normal. I would say it’s all part of the degeneration of our society.“
Former Pastor Todd Wagner
“Real Truth. Real Quick.”
Watermark Community Church
With over 84,000 subscribers, the “Real Truth. Real Quick.” YouTube channel (and podcast) features weekly posts from Watermark Community Church, a nondenominational evangelical church in Dallas, Texas. The ten-minute video “Does BDSM Have a Place in a Healthy Christian Marriage?” was posted in 2018, not long after the release of the 3rd movie in the 50 Shades series. Likely because of concerns about the Christian Grey movies and romance novels, most of the conversation focuses on pornography rather than BDSM.
With over 10,000 views, the video ranks as one of the top search results for “Christian BDSM” on YouTube. Senior Pastor Todd Wagner (resigned in 2021) is interviewed by Rick Smith, then the Director of Digital Ministry at Watermark. The short discussion is worth watching for additional context, beyond the quotes in this summary.
Pastor Wagner starts by reading the Dictionary.com entry for “sadomasochism,” but then he improvises with his own definition. Where the online dictionary definition (displayed accurately on-screen) describes how a masochist “…derives pleasure from experiencing pain,” Wagner’s verbal paraphrase casts doubt on that key part of the definition, changing it to “derives maybe even some pleasure from that physical or emotional torturing” (emphasis added). Intended for an audience without much prior knowledge of sadomasochism, Wagner’s version of the definition makes it sound sinister, like something that’s forced on your spouse regardless of their own preferences. (Incidentally, Charles Williams—a close friend of C. S. Lewis—once cautioned another friend against reading and relying on the dictionary definition of “sadism.” Williams was a Christian, an active sadist, and part of the team writing and editing the Oxford English Dictionary.)
“Gosh… Just That Definition Right There Doesn’t Seem to Fit the Exhortation of Scripture in Hebrews 13:4”
On the subject of BDSM (rather than pornography) the second main piece of evidence referenced by Wagner is a page on PsychologyToday.com. Although the specific page isn’t cited, he appears to be reading from the description of Fetishistic Disorder, saying vaguely, “When psychologists talk about fetishes, they talk about what’s called a fetishistic disorder…” Even a quick skim of the page (the first sentence, in fact) should make it clear that a fetish is only considered a disorder when it’s “coupled with clinically significant distress or impairment,” but Wagner makes no distinction between a normal fetish and a clinical disorder that disrupts someone’s daily life, a comparatively rare condition.
Although it sounds like the beginning of a sentence when read aloud on a podcast, Wagner’s key quote from PsychologyToday.com (when it appears on screen) begins with an ellipsis “…fetishism develops from early childhood experiences, in which an object was associated with a particularly powerful form of sexual arousal or gratification.” He presents this information as though it were a well-documented fact generally accepted by psychologists, but the actual sentence begins “Some theorists believe that…” From the immediate context before and after the quoted passage, it’s clear that this is one of several competing theories. The preceding sentence explains, “No cause for fetishistic disorder has been conclusively established.”
“…it’s a specific brand of pornography, which is called BDSM.”
Midway through the conversation, Wagner takes the claim about childhood experiences significantly further, saying “You go back and there’s always some traumatic experience in somebody’s life [. . .] and it’s just not normal. It’s not healthy.” Wagner might disagree with many of the conclusions reached by secular psychologists, but it’s surprising that he seems to ignore so much of the information on the page he references as an authority. Here are a few examples of how the same Psychology Today page discusses fetishes:
“…some level of fetishism is a normal feature of human sexuality.”
“Since fetishes occur in many normally developing individuals…”
“People who identify as fetishists but do not report associated clinical impairment would be considered to have a fetish but not fetishistic disorder.”
“Fetishistic fantasies are common and in many cases harmless.”
For the most part, the discussion fails to address any of the real questions that a Christian should ask before engaging in BDSM. Several Bible verses are cited, but the verses apply to kinky couples in much the same way as they would apply to couples with a more conventional bedroom repertoire. You should honor and love your spouse the way that Christ loved the church, and you should not allow yourself to be guided by selfishness. Of course, most forms of selfishness in the bedroom (and marriage in general) have nothing to do with BDSM. Here are the verses referenced:
Hebrews 13:4
Ephesians 5:25-26
Philippians 2:3 – (Do nothing from selfishness)
1 Corinthians 7:2-3
Romans 12:2
Whoever typed up the on-screen citations cleverly divided 1 Corinthians 7:3 (a rather short verse) into 1 Corinthians 7:3a and 1 Corinthians 7:3b, helpfully separating it from one of Wagner’s personal definitions or “principles.” Since the verse euphemistically talks about a husband fulfilling his conjugal duty to his wife, it’s decidedly unclear about how far that duty might extend regarding BDSM. Conversationally, Wagner inserts his own interpretation into the middle of the verse, between 3a and 3b: “A husband’s duty to his wife is not to inflict emotional or physical pain on her, even if it gives her pleasure. There are other ways to give a woman pleasure than to torture her, alright? …it is to cover her in love.”
Addressed in passing, the phrase “…even if it gives her pleasure” suggests that your wife’s pleasure (and presumably her preferences regarding BDSM) should not guide your behavior in the bedroom. This comment sheds additional light on Wagner’s version of the Dictionary.com definition—that whether or not your spouse enjoys BDSM is not particularly important, certainly not a decision-making factor. Elsewhere in the talk, non-procreative sex is condemned in sweeping but ambiguous terms, so “cover her in love” may not actually include a very wide menu of options.
The (Mostly) Sex-Positive Conclusion
Rick Smith asks a reasonable follow-up question near the end, describing a scenario where a person might pressure their spouse to try something like BDSM by saying, “If you really loved me, you would do this…” Wagner’s well-intentioned advice is worth repeating at length:
“Wow, you know, if you tell somebody ‘If you really love me, you would so this,’ you’ve completely got it backwards. A person should say, ‘because I really love you, I want to live with you in an understanding way.’ I think it’s really healthy that couples talk about what gives them sexual pleasure, but let’s never let us inflicting pain and suffering… or moving somebody into an area that they’re uncomfortable… is the way that they’re going to show love to us, alright? I’m to serve you and not ask you to serve me in ways that makes you uncomfortable.”
Former Senior Pastor Todd Wagner
Of course, if you want to openly discuss sexual pleasure and live with your spouse in an understanding way, then you probably shouldn’t quickly misdiagnose their interest in spanking (or a particular body part) as a clinical disorder. Most of us probably agree that you shouldn’t pressure your spouse to do anything that makes them uncomfortable, but that’s why communication, consent, and compassion are vital in every marriage, regardless of whether or not BDSM is involved. On the flip side, we all endure some uncomfortable conversations and make voluntary sacrifices for the sake of preserving and strengthening our marriages. If your wife tells you that she has always fantasized about receiving a sensual spanking, then her potential pleasure is surely more important than your discomfort at having to do more than 5 minutes of Google research.
Under some circumstances, the selfish response is refusing to have an open mind, judging and condemning your spouse simply for wanting something different in the bedroom. If your spouse is willing to reveal and discuss turn-ons and fantasies that make them feel insecure or ashamed, then the least you can do is endure the discomfort of an honest conversation.
5 (or 6) Key Principles
During the video discussion, key points occasionally appear on screen as numbered “principles.” The last two principles seem more effective as arguments in support of BDSM; others sound more like opinions. The principles help to make the conversation seem more structured, and they deserve to be considered individually.
Principle #1: It would be a perversion of God’s intent in marriage for spouses to experience joy by inflicting physical or mental suffering on one another.
Principle #2: When we watch pornography, we are neurologically training our mind to be physically attracted to another woman, person, or activity.
Principle #3: A husband’s duty to his wife is not to inflict emotional or physical pain on her, even if it gives her pleasure.
Principle #4a: We should honor our wives/husbands and make sure the marriage bed is not defiled by anything as selfish as a fetish.
Principle #4b: Because you love your spouse, seek to live with them in an understanding way.
Principle #5: It is healthy for married couples to talk to each other about what gives them sexual pleasure.
Continue to Part 2 of this series for a more thoughtful consideration of each of these principles.
Resources
“Does BDSM Have a Place in a Healthy Christian Marriage?”
Real Truth. Real Quick. Mar 16, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WG6rOsYj9k
Sadomasochism on Dictionary.com
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sadomasochism
Fetishistic Disorder on PsychologyToday.com (Updated 02/23/2019)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/fetishistic-disorder
Wagner’s Resignation
Wagner resigned as Pastor of Watermark in April of 2021, citing “the sin of pride” as the reason. The statement from church elders describes “…an erosion of trust in Todd Wagner’s ability to lead…”
https://www.watermark.org/update
I don’t think you can lay down the law about sexual behaviour in someone ele’s marriage. The main rule is husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and wives to be subject to their husbands. I don’t think being subject includes enduring sexual behaviour that repulsive to her. My wife said she was not happy with oral sex and I understood her and it stopped. In the same conversation she said she is comfortable in spanking me. I am so glad it didn’t work out the other way around in that she was comfortable with oral sex but not the spanking.